Most people outside Greece have no idea of the turmoil that has been going on over the name of the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia (also known as F.Y.R.O.M.). It seems that Fyromians want to be known as Macedonians, since their country falls within the boundaries of ancient Macedonia. It just so happens that a big chunk of northern Greece also falls within the boundaries of ancient Macedonia, along with part of Bulgaria. Obviously they all can’t be called Macedonia, and it seems Greece takes issue with the Fyromian desire to call themselves Macedonians, so the U.N. has been involved with little success (when has U.N. involvement spelled success, anyway?).
Shortly after his re-election, Dubya decided it was time to recognize F.Y.R.O.M. as the Republic of Macedonia, much to the disdain of Greeks. Easy to cling to a conspiracy theory, some Greeks have gone as far to say that Dubya supports a Fyromian invasion of northern Greece to claim the entire ancient Macedonian empire. Yea, that makes a lot of sense. I can really see the U.S. getting behind a tiny splinter nation that has little money and no resourceful advantages. Greeks seem constantly terrified that they will be invaded and occupied again, not that I blame them, given their history.
There has been a painstaking process trying to work out a decent compromise regarding naming F.Y.R.O.M. The latest plan by U.N. mediator Matthew Nimetz calls for three names: Republic of Macedonia to be used by countries that already recognize them as such; Republika Makedonija –Skopje to be used by Greece; and Republika Makedonija by international organizations until 2008 when the name will become just plain Republic of Macedonia. This is the brilliant plan a U.N. mediator came up with? Sounds basically like they are just calling the damn country Macedonia to me. How does that help?
For extra fun, it has been demanded that Greece cease and desist calling one of its northern regions Macedonia. Obviously, Greece ain’t down wit any o’ dat. My honest opinion is that it is all much ado about nothing, but if you want to go purely academic, I am afraid that Greece trumps F.Y.R.O.M. by a longshot.
What I don’t get is the fact that the Fyromians have this great opportunity to pick a brand spankin’ new name for their country. They should spend some time thinking about it, and come it with something totally new and different. There is always the option of naming the country insertclevernamehereland, but the Germans already did that. What about naming it after a favorite American T.V. show? Seinfeld would make a great name for a country. Who would want to mess with Seinfeldians? Or what about calling it after one of those planets in Star Trek? Vulcan perhaps, or Risa. They could always go back to just plain Yugoslavia, or just shorten it to Yugo. But then they’d have a tiny, piece o’ crap car as their national symbol.
They could always go with my choice if I had my own country: Twin Peaks. But you have to be careful with that one, because the owls just might not be what they seem.
16 comments:
How does one go about getting one of those splinter countries? Right now, the only idea I can come up with for a name for the place is Awesomeland, which kinda tells you about my maturity level. Geez tho, what an opportunity...
Sounds to me like Dubya would get confused about the two USAs.
FYROM doesn't want to invent a new name for their country for the same reason IBM wouldn't want to change its boring name...brand recognition. If FYROM got rid of "Macedonia" in its name, then it can't very well lay claim to famous Greek history which is the only reason people know this little backwater country of 2 million people. Everyone knows Ethiopia but not its breakaway state, Eritrea.
Awesomeland isn't original enough! You get a splinter country when your country breaks apart from a bigger country. So maybe if the U.S. starts breaking apart...
I actually think Slavic Macedonia isn't a bad option. I still think they are missing a great opportunity for a complete rename, though.
Thanos...You are 110% right on all points. And I think one of the reasons they're rejecting Slavic Macedonia is because the US has already given them the go-ahead to use Macedonia anyway so they've became emboldened from the gesture and are digging their heels in. Another reason they don't want Slavic Macedonia is because it serves to separate them from one of Greece's most famous sons...Alexander. Using the word "slavic" in the name will only distance them further from their misguided claim to Greek history. They're STILL using a stylized version of the Vergina Sun on their flag which just goes to show you how serious they are about being stubborn on the whole issue. From here on in, I'm just going to refer to them as Slavadonians. I'm sorry Mel...Awesomeland just doesn't roll off my tongue as easily. LOL
Ahhh, I like Slavadonians/Slavadonian. I think we should submit that!
I think it is actually quite sad that these people can't/won't connect with their own history.
I also think it is about damn time Greece lets the world know who they are and where they come from. Greece seems to get willingly walked on a lot.
A couple of quite pertinent points.
Aside from Thanos, I find it quite humorous that expats are eyeball deep in this "really big" issue. Where's the "humanitarianism" ladies? It doesn't stretch to people of extremely similar genetic makeup?
Greece was falling over itself lauding the initiation of talks for Turkey entering the EU a couple of weeks ago and no one seemed to be upset. THAT is the watershed event of the millenium and you guys want to talk about a "backwater country of 2 million" instead of hostile Muslim country with 70 million? Do you not see your ignorance and "whistling past the graveyard" approach here?
Thanos, your history is skewed towards Greek nationalism, which is fine. However being a physician, I would think you would have looked into the matter a little more deeper than your average coffee shop attendee does. Macedonians of the region believed and knew they were Macedonians way before Tito "made them believe" it. The reintroduction of "slavs" in the region centuries ago did not have a drastic miscegenating effect on the inhabitants just as the Ottoman occupation did not prevent Greeks from remaining to be Greek.
Ethnocentrist, I have made three posts about the Turk issue in the course of my blogging career. As far as I'm concerned, I've beat that horse to a bloody pulp. There is nothing more to say about Turkey than what I've said, at least for now. I hadn't yet made a post about the whole Macedonian thing and felt I would now.
As to the rest, well, I don't have much at stake there. I think the whole name issue is kinda silly, but I don't think Fyromians are descendants of Alexander, either, except to the extent that he might have procreated with slaves.
Thanos,
As mentioned before, my wife is Macedonian and she absolutely stipulates Macedonian and not Greek Macedonian nor "Slav" Macedonian. I have spoken with "these people" most of my adult life and have read many a book about the issue. I will not insult her nor my children on what amounts to be a politically motivated "religion" on this topic. I've stupidly and ashamedly done the arguing for "our" cause many years ago and quite bitterly. In the end 1) it is not important and 2) there are problems on BOTH sides, including Greeces. If Macedonia was so important really, why was it never mentioned when I was growing up in Thessaloniki? You're in your 30's so you know of what I speak here. As a matter of fact, the term Macedonia was at one time strictly forbidden. Somewhat of an enigma for an area that is SO important, don't you think?
Ethno...stop trying to stir up a hornet's nest where there is none. This is the first time Mel has blogged on FYROM. I guarantee you I do not lose any sleep over what FYROM decides to call itself. You read one blog out of hundreds that Mel has posted and then arrive at the conclusion that we are consumed by it. That's a big jump even for you.
If you're so hell bent on discussing Turkey, create your own blog. Why would you presume that she must devote her blog to your obsession as well?
Turkey will be the end of Europe, that's why. I wasn't jumping on her, just found it quite humorous that you two expats got in on the "hornet's nest" topic. Never said "consumed" either.
And again, who in the rest of the world gives a monkey's backside?
You're right about Flyby, Thanos, but obviously he is correct in his analysis. No one gives a crap about this issue except two peoples.
To answer your question Thanos, the crux of the problem is the designation of ancient Macedon. We have been taught that it is Greek, another "tribe" of Greeks that formed this city-state of ancient times with all its accomplishments that followed, blah blah blah.
Macedonians reject that entirely and view ancient Macedon as an entirely different peoples than the ancient Greeks. They looked and were different. They spoke ancient Greek, which was the language of the time, as well as their own. That is the crux and that is why they do not have this loyalty as you state. They view themselves AS Macedonian which is not a tribe of ancient Greeks, but a separate tribe altogether.
To be honest, despite my coming to terms with this issue with my wife, I still do not know what the exact truth is. I know what I was taught and what I have read. Both sides make valid points.
(I'll try to comment again, I managed to copy and paste something right in the middle last time. Second time lucky...?)
Some very good points raised in this thread. It's rare that I find my self agreeing with so many people.
The whole Macedonia thing has been bubbling away under the surface for a long time now. I think we even have a sunscreen for the car with 'MAKEDONIA IS GREECE' written across it.
What irriates me is that if they use the name Macedonia, people will think Alexander The Great and assume it's something to do with Greece.
They are basically laying claim to something that's nothing to do with them. How can they lay claim to Alexander The Greats place of birth? I can see why they try though, as has been stated above numerous times, if they don't have the name Macedonia then what do they have? Nothing! That's right.
When the FYROM was created, they were intent on making trouble from the start. President Gligorov made this very clear when he put the Vergina Sun on the FYROM flag. (The Vergina Sun was the symbol of Alexander the Great's Royal Family... however the FYROM dropped this from their flag in 1995). As well as this, he also continued to refer to the FYROM as Macedonia which was not the agreed name.
It's always been a serious issue here in Greece, I remember a plane having to have it's name (or flag) painted over before being allowed to leave Athens Airport.
We'll just have to wait and see how this goes. Athens isn't going to back down on this it appears.
From a personal point of view, I remember flying from London to Athens a few years ago on an Olympic Airways flight and when the plane pulled up to the gate. It had Macedonian Airlines painted on it (charter subsidary of OA) and I heard one of the staff comment about this and the other guy said something like "they always send a Macedonian Airlines plane and crew on a Tuesday" and the woman said "oh good, I can talk to them in my language". That irritated the hell out of me.
Thanos,
LOL
You see now, eh? Listen, it took me many years to not care so much about this issue and for obvious reasons already mentioned, I do not expect you to do the same in a mere few words here. Nor really want you to. It just struck me funny that this issue still is hyper-sensitive, and especially with two women who weren't even born in Greece. Now THAT is being engulfed in Hellenism!
I'll wait for verifiable genetic evidence to prove whether current Macedonians are decendents of Philip and Alexander or whether Greeks are. At that point, whatever the answer will be and I personally don't care which way it will fall, the issue can finally be closed.
Anyway, to me this is a stupid distraction. The issue at hand of supreme importance is the Islamization of Europe, Turkey, and unlimited immigration from places that have no business sending people into Europe and European derived nations. If this is not addressed and quickly reversed, then this Macedonian issue will be the least of anybody's worries.
I would like to say that, in my view it is clearly not an "innocent" issue that we should just let go. The KLA (known as UCK) was too weak to threaten the Serbian army, and remove Kosovo from Serbia. If a person said in the late 80's that Kosovo would become independent, they would think that this person is insane. Yet look at what is happening now.
The Skopjans are setting an "ideological basis" for aggressive acts against Greece. And this is no joke.
Apart from that, I would like to draw a parallel which will be easily understood by Americans. Imagine an American of European (say English) origin, claiming heritage to the Indians. This is how preposterous the claim of Skopje is.
ethocentrist, you state that you will wait for genetic evidence to resolve this claim. It is obvious that some of the people in Skopje are "Skopjanised Greeks" and will definitely have some ancient Dorian DNA. So, how about some cultural evidence?
Why is Alexander presented in ancient images wearing a helmet shaped like a lion's head? In order to claim heritage to Hercules, something which all Dorian Greeks did.
And the most important argument. Why is there no evidence of an ancient "Macedonian" language? Why is everything written in Greek? The Skopjans say that this is because Greek was the "lingua Franca" of the era. Yet, in Egypt, which was also occupied by Hellenes, we can find written evidence of a non-Greek language, both before and after the Hellenic occupation.
Unfortunateley, there are many paths to self-deception, and the Skpojans seem to be going every which way in order to find some sort of ideological basis to take what is not theirs. It is such a shame that, in the 21st century, people in the Balkans this in the juvenile way that people in the 10th century used to think.
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